TPH Spotlight: Joshua McLaughlin
Different levels of love for Product that led to Product Ops
Joshua (Josh) McLaughlin came across my LinkedIn feed one day because #ProductOps. We actually met because Josh caught me during one of my LinkedIn cleaning fits, where I spend time every few weeks going through messages. He was curious about where my career was headed seeing as I moved towards strategy, and we got to chatting shortly after.
Since then, I’ve watched him become another valuable resource for our community, sharing learnings and advice & tips for people interested in learning about Product Operations, while working on his next professional adventure. I asked Josh if he’d like to participate in this project because during the time we exchanged messages and met, he reminded me of the power and impact we have as former PMs who want to create a better space for product people to thrive in.
So, let’s dig into Josh’s story.
Background, Education & Professional Highlights
Originally From: A small town in Nebraska. Josh moved to Omaha when he was 16 and finished high school there. He did a year of college and headed off to Arizona by himself with everything he could fit in his car. The intent was to experience Arizona for a short time but with no timeline in sight, he ended up calling it home with his wife and children.
University: A year at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, then part-time college a while after in Scottsdale and then Western International University.
Preference, company size: 250-500 people (but open-minded).
Preference, work environment: Remote at this stage in life, to be present for that beautiful family above.
Companies that attract Josh: Companies who entertain or genuinely help users. If a company works to improve their user’s life and surroundings, he appreciates the work more. He also loves collaborating with smart, talented humans who he can always learn something from.
Roles we’ll dive into:
Website Manager
Digital Marketing
Product Manager
Product Ops Manager
Freelancer
A non-traditional approach to higher ed
When Josh completed his first year at Omaha, he moved to Arizona with the thought in his mind that he’d qualify for in-state tuition and stick it out there for a bit. He was initially interested in architecture, but gave it up after working at a small business for a while, which helped him decide to pursue business and e-commerce when he was to resume college.
Josh felt compelled to focus on a combination of real-life experience and academia at the same time. So he worked full-time and took night classes, applying what he learned during the day at work to his classes at night.
“I essentially did the whole college years backwards compared to how most people approach it. But I believed at the time (and I still do) that getting real-life experience in addition to academics was a great balance of acquiring street smarts and book smarts simultaneously. In other words, I was able to apply what I learned the next day in my job and bring examples from work into the classroom. For me, this was a great way to get value from both in ways I hadn’t initially expected. Even if it was simply understanding concepts from a distance.”
Though this seems like a non-traditional approach to achieving higher education, we are seeing it more and more these days for several reasons. As parents we often wonder what will set our children up for success if traditional college degrees are no longer held in the same regard. This approach may be a great one to consider as the world shifts and tech continues to rapidly evolve every industry.
Learning how to learn and self-awareness - critical skills
Josh believes that having a learner’s mindset, an open mind, and being curious were as important back then for getting good grades as they are today for identifying new ways to solve user and business problems as product people. His meta-learning skills were achieved during this time. He also believes college is a time of significant growth, both academically and personally. It’s a time to develop social skills and learn more about yourself. “Learning doesn’t stop with graduating from school. So the more you can optimize your ability to learn, hone your curiosity, and leverage these to your advantage, the more they will serve you.”
As his career progressed into both Product Management and Product Ops, he leaned in heavily to these two skills. One of the books Josh recommends, The Inevitable by Kevin Kelly, discusses the concept that everything is in a state of becoming - rendering all of us as “newbies” in this ever-evolving technological world. In this we learn that progress is a constant force and everything is perpetually moving forward. The book suggests there’s no escaping the feeling of being a newcomer and it's a sensation we’ll all feel over and over again. Embracing this reality and optimizing how we learn will be our most effective strategy in a world that never stops moving ahead. So the more we can optimize our ability to learn, hone in on curiosity, and leverage these to our advantage, the more they will serve us.
What about those seeking a route without college?
For those seeking to get into Product Management without going to college, Josh advises that the best way to learn is by doing. Probably not a surprise to read at this point!
When we immerse ourselves in tech and try different products, taking mental notes and thinking critically about why creators or product managers have made decisions, it helps us get into a different (and the right) mindset. He also believes people may have an easier time getting into product-adjacent roles like marketing or customer support or sales. The reason is because these roles teach you how to gain empathy, develop effective communication and problem solving skills, grow your analytical chops, collaborate across teams, and adapt to change in businesses and the market.
Josh’s Core Values
My favorite part of these spotlights may be this section. They help us understand what, at someone’s core, makes them who they are and what drives their decisions.
Josh’s two core values:
Always find balance - Josh feels he’s consistently the best version of himself when he has his personal and professional lives in balance, citing he knows it’s very easy to get swept up with work tasks at the expense of personal ones.
He lives and dies by his calendar but he now carves out time to tackle personal items and defends it so ruthlessly to make sure he has a balance in his life. In the past, pushing himself to his limits has had diminishing returns and he has seen the quality of his work slip as a result. In order to be his best at work, he needs to be his best at home. I love when people come to this realization! Some of the most impactful strides in Josh’s career have come alongside the moments he’s struck the right balance at home.
Do more, say less - For this core value, he recalls two quotes some of us may know:
“Those who know don’t talk, those who talk don’t know.” - Chapter 56 in the Tao Te Ching. Josh notes he prefers to let his actions define his character, not his words. If people have to go around telling others how great they are, they’re probably not so great after all. Related to this is the next quote, “Efficiency is doing things right; effectiveness is doing the right things.” - Peter Drucker. In product, finding the right solution is hard enough. As professionals we find ourselves pushing to deliver a solution in the fewest number of iterations, always reaching for perfection in the first version. However, he believes we can save time in the long run and reduce waste if we instead slow down and validate that our solution is the right way to move forward, even if incrementally.
Another quote that came to my mind up while learning his story is “Seek first to understand, then to be understood.” - Stephen Covey. Josh he believes people fall into this trap often - trying to have others see their points first. By investing the effort to grasp context, data, and nuances of the situation, you’ll set yourself up for success. Josh notes: “Throughout my career, there have been instances when my decision to slow down, apply critical thinking, particularly when dealing with third parties or external vendors, has led to identifying oversights and avoiding costly assumptions.”
Career Deep Dive
Josh’s transition to knowledge-based work happened when he was offered the role of website manager from the owner of the warehouse he worked in. He was grateful for this opportunity as it gave him a glimpse into the inner workings of go-to-market, which then triggered his creative side and pushed him to want to enhance the user experience and streamline discoverability of their products. He notes that at that time he did not realize this role would set him up to explore different avenues that ultimately led him to the world of Product Management. Before we dive into that world, I’ll share that Josh is grateful for the CEO who took a leap of faith by entrusting a warehouse manager with this critical role.
He stepped into digital marketing for a while, where he learned skills like A/B testing, reporting, analytics, and deeper go-to-market strategies. This was another role that set him up for more to come as a PM. Funnily enough, my first guest for this series happened to kick off her career in marketing, and believes so many of those skills are what led her to become a better PM.
And the magic moment. Josh remembers how he became a PM so vividly. Like many of us, he was already doing the role and didn’t know it existed. This moment needs to be seen through Josh’s words:
I was managing an ecommerce site for what Marty Cagan would describe as a “feature team.” I reported up through Marketing but worked closely with IT who contracted out our development efforts to an external team of developers. Our company merged with another that excelled at software development, and resembled what Cagan would refer to as an “empowered product team.” I moved to the Product team as a Product Manager. I learned everything I could about the role and was hooked. I found my calling and I’ve been passionate about the craft of product management ever since.
Once the heart of a product person starts beating… you know the rest.
Later, Josh recalls reading about Product Operations from a piece I wrote in my earlier days in the space, when the role was quickly emerging. He believed the role might alleviate growing pains their team was experiencing, and shared the article with their CPO and Director. Though they were not yet ready to formalize the role, some years later they asked him to assume their first ProdOps manager role, which he initially declined as he was not yet ready to leave his role as a PM.
Callout from the author here: The amount of times I heard this struggle! And, the empathy I feel for those who have been in this seat. ProdOps was so unknown, and it was so natural to be nervous to give up something we all knew and loved, but I have found no one who has regretted it. Those of you reading who are on the fence, let this inspire you.
Josh realized shortly after declining the seat that he wanted to share his passion for product with his team in new ways. So he sat with his leadership, aligned on the role and officially accepted the chance to lead their Product Ops function. I will, again, let his words tell you all why this felt so special:
Creating the Product Ops function stands out as a significant accomplishment in my career, filling me with immense pride. It represents the culmination of numerous experiences that preceded it. Reflecting on my journey, I like to think it closely resembles the classic Hero’s Journey narrative. At first, I resisted the calling, but eventually, I fully embraced it. Now, it feels unimaginable to picture my life without having made that pivotal decision.
I got all the feels when I heard that. I bet some of you are feeling it too.
Major learning along the way
Thinking back, there’s a moment where Josh realized he made a misstep that could have been avoided. Before I dive in, it’s important to note that what drove this decision was his belief in transparency and trust with the team, something that is a non-negotiable in the product world if you want to build a world class product team.
Back to the misstep. Josh dove into his ProdOps role head-on. He did tons of research with the team to understand their pains and gather feedback to help him determine where to place his bets first. I love this because I believe this is what sets you up to build Product Ops as a product! Through his research he realized there was a sense the team lacked influence in strategic decision-making for the product. Josh shared the results with the broader team, without first giving leadership the opportunity to process and discuss. The information was based on objective data vs. personal opinions, but it still hit leadership in a no-so-pleasant way, since they were a bit surprised by what was shared.
As the company shifted, so did leadership (he notes they were going through changes post-acquisition). It worked in his favor that new leaders sought the information he had on hand in an effort to make a positive impact quickly. Still, he learned it’s just as important to not surprise your leaders as it is for them to not surprise you.
What’s he up to today?
What’s so interesting about our Product Ops space is the mighty community. There is such a strength in it from those who are working hard to help others understand it, and to help each other. By luck, Josh was connected to another ProdOps enthusiast who took a chance on him and asked if he’d help with a project for one of their clients. It was because of this and the success he achieved on the project that Josh jumped into the world of freelance product work, which he assumed full-time for a while.
Today, even though he is back in the mix full-time at a new company, he still works on the side as a product and product ops consultant and advisor across different industries. He loves being able to learn something new from each of them, gaining exposure to many new areas, and learning more about himself on this part of his journey. Freelancing forces people to step outside of their comfort zones, ask questions, and pay attention to details. Not to mention it shows them how to build a business, generate their own leads, and market themselves. Proving he can do all of this with experience he gained along his career has been a huge success story in Josh’s book.
Invaluable Resources
During his time above, Josh leaned on several resources many of you have found, or will find valuable:
Tribal Leadership by Dave Logan
David Allen’s Getting Things Done (productivity system)
Good to Great by Jim Collins
Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely
Delivering Happiness by Tony Hsieh
Shreyas Doshi’s twitter feed, LinkedIn, and YouTube videos
John Cutler’s twitter feed, LinkedIn, and substack newsletter
Lenny’s newsletter and podcast
Marty Cagan’s Empowered and SVPG articles
Rocketship.fm (particularly the episodes with Bob Moesta about Jobs to be done)
This is Product Management Podcast
Toresa Torres (any video he could find with her, her blog, and eventually her book Continuous Discovery Habits)
So much impact in his life has come from these people who he says he’ll probably never meet. Go ahead and add them to your lists :)
Giving Thanks…
I don’t need to belabor this… we are nothing without learnings and support from those around us. Here’s who Josh wants to give special thanks to:
His wife, Jessica: For being his rock of stability at every stage of his crazy ride.
Andrew Krause: A fellow PM who became his manager who then became a close friend, confidant, and a fellow hot sauce enthusiast.
Jenny Wanger: Originally stranger in his online network who took his call and helped pivot his career towards solopreneurship.
Bill Davis: Another stranger on the Internet who became a kindred spirit for Josh of all things Product Management and Product Ops.
Josh also notes all of his managers who have hired or inherited him are to be thanked. They gave their time and effort to help develop his skills and abilities and he now calls some of them lifelong friends.
Getting back to the Product Heart, in Josh’s words:
With each spotlight, I ask my guest to answer a few questions I hope will help both aspiring product hearts start their journey, and experienced ones think about theirs.
Here are Josh’s responses in his own words:
What advice would you give PMs today?
Josh: “Immerse yourself:
Seek out and read books and articles about product management and related topics
Attend conferences and meetups
Talk to other PMs and learn from their experiences (Hint: Reach out to them on LinkedIn and ask to chat. You’d be amazed at how helpful this can be!)
Take online courses or workshops
Look at the products you use and try to think of the decisions that went into bringing them to market
Stay open to new roles and opportunities - you never know where they might lead you!
The more you immerse yourself in the craft of product management, the better you will become at it. And the better you are as a PM, the more rewarding your career will be.”
What advice would you give to Product Operations people today?
Josh: “Avoid getting caught up in a strict definition of the role and instead focus on developing the model that works best for their unique situation.
Product Ops can be a challenging role because of its variability and it has a shorter history than many other roles, making it difficult to shape where its boundaries should be drawn. Similar to the PM role, if you find your idea of the Product Ops work you’re passionate about doesn't match your current situation, you can find another opportunity where it’s a better match.
Follow your Product Ops peers and these thought leaders in the space.
Cultivate these qualities in yourself and your team.
Get involved in the community, someone is in a situation now that you were once in, share your experience so they can find it!
By actively sharing our experiences, both triumphs and obstacles, we can collectively contribute to the growth and advancement of this role. Let's avoid overthinking and instead focus on the power of sharing knowledge and experiences.”
What grounds you as a product person?
Josh: “Spending time outdoors and engaging in exercise. Whenever these two components are absent from my routine, I noticeably begin to feel out of balance. I can’t stress enough the remarkable benefits I have personally experienced by simply going for a short walk while listening to something funny. It serves as an excellent way of disconnecting from the monotonous daily routine, reminding me not to take myself or most situations too seriously.”
What do you remind yourself of in the hardest days in this space?
Josh: “I try to put things into the perspective that at the end of the day, we’re all still learning. Product development is about observing, testing, and adjusting. It’s about finding creative ways to solve problems. And while some of us have different levels of experience, time in a particular field, or studied in different disciplines, we all get the chance to learn something new about ourselves when times are difficult. Often the situations that make us most uncomfortable, the ones we’d rather avoid, hold the lessons we need to learn. Embracing this idea and leaning into the discomfort rather than running from it is usually the fastest way to overcome it.
If you do find yourself stuck, it’s important to remember there’s a really great, large, and supportive community of product people just like you willing to offer their advice. Don’t be afraid to reach out to them - most are happy to chat if you just ask.”
Imagine someone waved a wand and allowed you to sit with YOU, at the beginning of your professional journey. What would you say to yourself?
Josh: “Don't stress over having everything figured out. Having the vantage point of looking back, I now realize that there are numerous paths to reach the same outcome, some of which may seem unconventional, counterintuitive, and hidden from your current perspective as someone just starting out. Instead of obsessing over checking certain boxes, it can be beneficial to embrace the experience and let it guide you. This approach can lead you to the same destination with much less stress. I'm not dismissing the importance of setting goals and making plans to achieve them. What I'm suggesting is that sometimes you need to pay attention to the signals life sends your way and explore them, even if they don't appear to align with your intended direction in the moment. The thing is, you can't see the full picture yet. This advice might not resonate with everyone, but personally, it would have spared me a lot of unnecessary worry and anxiety.”
What do you feel people coming up in our space should spend time learning about or doing?
Josh: “Foundational skills and first principles that are universal and are still present beneath the surface of today’s trending topics. For product professionals, these foundational elements are things like:
A user-centric mindset
Agile methodologies
Product lifecycles
User research & validation
Product strategy
Data-informed decision making
Effective communication
Business acumen”
Huge thanks to Josh for taking the time to share his journey with us from Product Management to Product Operations, and for all he does for the community!
You can find Josh and follow along with him here: https://linktr.ee/joshmcla.